The world actively rewards bad behavior. This realization was a difficult pill for me to swallow.
Learning this from my (soon-to-be-ex-) wife right now…
I’ve known this for a long time but I continue to do my best to operate honorably. I may never be rich or powerful, but I sleep very well at night.
I still don’t sleep well, knowing the state of the world
Yea. Trying to be correct and do things in a respectful and good way makes me more and more bitter, resentful and judgemental.
Soon that in itself will corrupt me.
I have to manipulate and lie to myself that things will get better
“control what you can” is my largest crutch.
I just had a talk with my son, 12, this morning about the bad feelings we get when we lie, trick, or cheat and are caught. For me, I explained, it can even physically hurt because my chest tightens. Sometime around when I was my son’s age, I decided I wanted to avoid that feeling at all costs, and just stopped trying to lie, or trick, or get away with something wrong, because the risk was never worth it.
I may not be rich, or powerful, or hell even interesting, but I do sleep well at night and nearing middle age, I’ve more love in my life than I’ve ever had before. I hope to pass that to my son. Honest man’s living is superior.
My neighbor will tell me all about her grown son (who I know as a racist shit bag, and his son bullys mine) is so successful financially, yet in the same breath tells me she doesn’t bother wasting money on her garden because she can get free tomatoes from the food bank.
Money doesn’t mean one is successful in my opinion. Are they happy? Do they love themselves? Do they treat others kindly? Do the add to their community in positive ways? Do they never take more than they need so that others can have too? That’s success.
I prefer to have my conscience clean, and be the brokest person out there, than to lie, sceme, cheat to gain some arbitrary “success”.
“Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct” This is the reason psychopaths are so successful.
We create a world of kindness or selfishness, judgement or forgiveness every day. These behaviors may get you money or power, but the world you have to live in gets worse. I don’t think you realize how much you lose getting ahead, and how much you cost everyone else.
There’s very few things more galling than yourself playing by the rules, putting in the time and effort to have some kind of social contract, only to have someone flippantly disregard said rules and contract and to benefit from it. Doesn’t matter if it’s someone cutting in line or pillaging the highest office in the land for their own gain.
It makes you bad at art and inventing tho. The liar plays a shallow game.
It says grim things that by playing the shallow game you can succeed in our society. I blame the rule of law. It was basically designed to be gamed.
Say what you will about dictators, at least they’re human.
You take the Edison route of stealing from people like Tesla. One goes down as a famous inventor and the other dies broke and alone other than his pigeons.
And yes, the system is made for people to be pieces of shit because it was created by pieces of shit.
The system could also be described as an abstraction of the same system that’s existed for millions of years. Domination by the powerful, exploitation of the weak, etc. Not so much evil as brutish.
That’s just slavery with more steps!
I don’t see the connection.
Modern wage slaves are not far removed from royalty having an imbalance of power. It’s common to refer to our current “work to live or die” society as slavery with extra steps because many are forced to spend their time doing things that benefit their bosses more than themselves
I suppose slavery is an abstract form of being eaten. It certainly “uses every part of the animal” better than just chomping it up.
I see that It’s my turn to be confused
Most successful artists are just as manipulative as any CEO. It’s a money laundering front at this point
yeah but those guys are assholes
Yeah that tends to happen when most everyone enables such behavior.
A system designed by psychopaths benefits psychopaths? No way…
You’ll still be a shit person, likely with no meaningful friendships. That’s gotta factor into the equation somehow.
Yeah, that’s what the rest of us try to convince ourself so that we can cope with it. That or the idea that these people must sleep very poorly thinking about what they’ve done, while we’re actually the ones who have poor sleep thinking about what they’ve done and feeling powerless.
People with low empathy don’t see people as companions, but more as tools to benefit themselves. So they don’t really care as long as they have enough money and pawns to take care of themselves.
I’m a domestic abuse outreach worker and I see it a lot in clients. Abusers are always selfish and generally manipulative and liars. They have little or no empathy for their partner and rarely care how the partner feels. They’re often highly successful in their field, because they have such great manipulation skills.
I imagine your job is as draining as it is fulfilling
Thanks mate, you certainly have to accept the losses. I look at soft outcomes though, so making the children feel heard and like they matter. It gets me through.
You couldn’t be thanked enough for your work
I really, truly appreciate it Keanu thanks so much ❤️
Shhh…I made this elaborate fake name because I didn’t want everyone to know I’m 8 time MTV Movie & TV Awards nominee and 4 time winner Keanu Reeves
Reducing other people to mere tools is a symptom of psychopathy rather than simply low empathy. Yes, psychopaths are within the set of people with low empathy, however, shouldn’t be confused with the set itself. It’s also specifically a lack of affective (warm) empathy that’s more of the problem than a lack of empathy in general, as some psychopaths do have cognitive (cold) empathy, and so do understand others (albeit to a limited extent), however, just use it to be more exploitive rather than less. This is by contrast with autistic people who often struggle with cognitive (cold) empathy, however, not with affective (warm) empathy, i.e. they don’t know how they’ve hurt people but they know they’ve hurt people and try to avoid doing so.
Been a while since psych and I’m sure some terms I use are outdated now but the way it was explained to me was that sociopaths feel some guilt and remorse but do it anyways whereas psychopaths don’t feel any remorse at all. I think symptoms of both have been melded into ASPD in general now but the logic applies. If someone is capable of lying and manipulating without remorse (my original statement) then it would be a very low chance that they see others as equals
There is no such thing as a sociopath clinically speaking. There are primary and secondary psychopaths though, the former lacking empathy entirely and the latter having access to some empathy. They are both alloplastic (irresponsible for their actions and their consequences) and thus neither can feel guilt as guilt is associated with having responsibility. Psychopaths tend to have a generalised anxiety at their core, which they compensate for with defiance (to convince themselves and others of their power as a means to deal with the anxiety). This creates a backlash against them, which because they’re irresponsible, creates frustration, something they can’t manage well, and so direct the frustration outwards in the form of aggression.
Anxiety and shame are the emotions associated with negative (or potential) consequences while being powerless. Psychopaths are more anxious because they have an internal locus of control, whereas narcissists are more shameful because they don’t. In both cases, they seek control, albeit for different reasons.
EDIT: Psychopaths see other people as pets at best, and tools at worst. As you say, they do not perceive you as equals.
That’s more useful than you know for someone I’m currently dealing with. I consider myself patient but everyone has their limits, how do you help someone who is defiant, seek control, and clearly anxious without letting them tear your mood apart?
I know I’m supposed to understand they are acting out of confused defense but it’s truly difficult to be the caregiver to someone who is essentially throwing an illogical temper tantrum nearly 24/7?
In my experience, you try to have as little to do with them as possible. Do you have some legal obligation to be their caregiver?
I think most people will recommend setting boundaries and sticking to them, however, they are compelled to cross any lines you set.
You kind of end up setting sacrificial boundaries that they can cross, or boundaries with a buffer zone so they can cross it a little bit without going too far.
Like, if the speed limit is 50 km/h, they’re going to go 55 km/h, and that’s still a safe speed so you’re happy and they’re happy. If they go 100 km/h, well, that’s genuinely unsafe and you’re forced to intervene.
Moral obligation. Yes I am in that constant cycle of setting boundaries, having them crossed, and forgiving them because they have noone else to care for them. I don’t see giving up as an option on the matter but I know I’m sacrificing my mental health for them.
I’ve got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.
However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.
It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO’s are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it’s a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It’s likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.
I love you put billionaires next to other disasters
In many ways billionaires are worse than the other disasters listed.
Mostly because people aspire to be billionaires. Society would be much better off if people aspired to be hurricanes.
Thank you, I have a new goal in life.
The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they’re a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn’t feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.
I’ve been thinking about these things, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We’ve specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.
That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.
And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.
End them all.
Or the other option: all kids are equally capable of being dicks to each other. It just depends who has social capital. Kids who have the traits necessary to gain social capital - intelligence, athleticism, attractiveness, confidence, etc - end up on top of the social hierarchy in school and also end up going farther in life.
Theoretically, all people are capable of being president, but I ky very few get there, irrespective of ability.
You’re right about their attributes being a guide. I reckon it’s down to the confidence, more than anything. Bullys are typically seen as acting out due to their own insecurity. However, the skills learned in putting themselves above others likely helps to achieve personal goals. It’s likely similar for attractive people and confidence. Confidence is a drug that affects other people.
I’d also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.
And also how they assessed “being a bully”
I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:
Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.
successful financially and socially
Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn’t mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.
Believe it or not, social interaction isn’t limited to social media. Or so I’ve been told…
Lies and manipulation do not lead to good social interactions.
Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway
It’s because we live in a system with perverse incentives. It’s practically designed by psychopaths, for psychopaths. Still, we only get one life, don’t spend it going against your better nature.
I so wish that I could grift the fuck out of the goddamn Nazis and get rich off of their idiocy but I would feel icky with dirty money.
You could do it and then give me the money
Go to work for ICE, and be the worst worker in the history of America. Then you earned your money gumming up the works of an evil organization, and you can feel good about taking their money to hurt them.
I would be alright with ICE getting fake armor plates, defective bullets, and boots with thin soles.
Eh, I bet the pay is shit
Maybe, but it also means that you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don’t have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that’s not a bearable existence. Sure, you got power, but you’re miserable and afraid all the time. Was that really worth it?
That doesn’t seem to bother the kind of people being described
Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?
Zuckbot seems legitimately happy now after being less involved with the company and pursuing personal goals
you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!
I just don’t like most people.
Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person, they will do what they can to silence them so they aren’t given the chance to expose corruption.
You probably don’t like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves
You’d be wrong. I’m sorry that you feel this way about humanity, but that is simply not true. And believing that won’t make you a “smart” person. It makes you’re no better than those people, and it also makes you feel worse.
It might be satisfying in the moment to hate humanity, but that satisfaction is fleeting and addicting. Being a misanthrope just brings the worst version of yourself out.
Seems condescending to assume I think that belief makes me “smart”. I’m speaking on my experience, that’s the only experience I have. I don’t appreciate you trying to make me out as some kind of angsty teen rebel.
Well, your experience isn’t universal. Most people aren’t like you described.
Maybe you need a change of environment.
Let me put it this way. If your family was 1 of 2 surviving families on earth for whatever reason and all the resources have run out. You’re stuck in an underground bunker and unfortunately your only option for survival is cannibalism (this is a common thought exercise in philosophy) are you more willing to eat your family? Or the other?
And what about towards the end, when it’s just you and one other person. Do you override your survival instinct and offer yourself up, or do you start reasoning to yourself that this is a necessary evil?
I want the worst version of myself out. I recently made two shitty co-workers crap themselves.
Being bad towards shitty people is a different beast from being bad towards everyone because you assume the worst out of everyone.
Righteous outrage is addicting, but it’s also extremely fucking draining. I left reddit because I’d constantly rage bait myself every day and it was destroying my relationships.
Read your profile, our stories are nearly the same!
Wow. You actually get me.
shifty eyes
I still don’t trust you…
I want nothing from you other than your social security, bank cards and pins, credit card information, medical information, your first born, your shoe size, favorite color and why, as well as your third born
via SMBC:
Yeah it really depends on what you consider success. For a lot of people, money & power isn’t necessarily the marker for success, and finding meaning and joy in life is more important. And I know that sounds like capitalist “money doesn’t buy you happiness” bs, but striving towards money and power consistently is the most capitalist thing you can do.
I think people who are able to attain a good amount of money to survive and still maintain their morals and find joy, that’s success.
You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you’re always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.
Hey, you just described church!
There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.
Just because we don’t see it or it doesn’t look like we think it should doesn’t mean it’s not real. Imagine being shallow and wanting to marry for how it looks on the outside. Imagine 20 -30 years later realizing you’re stuck in a companionless relationship, but refusing to end it because it makes sense on paper to keep it intact.
I believe in consequences of your actions of course, but I don’t believe there is some kind of cosmic scale balancing right and wrong. Maybe there is but that’s quite an assumption to make. Lots of old rich men and women end up in that cycle of trading partners in like leased vehicles. Some people don’t care so much for companionship as much as they care about vanity. Sad, yes, but who am I to dictate how some people find happiness.
Maybe they are happy. The people I’ve met living that way seem miserable. That’s really all karma is, cause and effect. We either learn or don’t. I really believe that the kingdoms of heaven (and hell) are inside us. That doesn’t necessarily equate to physical reality, eg, every need met can still leave people miserable, people who seemingly struggle manage to find peace, if not happiness, others who match their physical reality, often we slide among points on the spectrum of being.
I don’t see it as perfectly balanced or absolute equilibrium. I see it as more of a spiral hourglass that flips like the magnetic poles. But that’s a whole other discussion and I need to develop that concept, as I just surprised myself with it. That’s a sleepy thought.
I do find that a lot of “bully” type people seem miserable, angry, combatative. That’s likely what drives their lack of empathy though, they don’t care about hurting others because they think in some roundabout way that if everyone is upset then it’s fair. There are a lot of reasons why some people justify the way they live and a lot of them will never willingly change.
Yes karma is cause and effect but a lot of times the effect won’t happen without human intervention to force it into reality. I would describe that more as social structure or framework. Tomato potato
Outside pressures are often the driving forces of evolution, and affect everything engaged in a particular process. Dawkins talked about this, iirc.
Anyway, observing a thing changes it. There will always be latent effects. Maybe it’s not about individual learning, but collective learning, with a nod to Dawkins.
It would be great to think one day society would reward good people more often but we are still crawling to that goal
