Yea, unfortunately I read the whole study out of good faith. It’s wild that comment has as many upvotes as it does, but just goes to show how little people actually care about the truth and how ready they are to accept anything that purports to back their own claims. Or hopefully that Lemmy is being astroturfed already and no one actually believes that, they’re just sowing division.

Every case is just gross and a great example of how patriarchy harms men. I can’t believe people think that they can marry off their disabled son and they’d just be effectively cared for by their new wife. Heartbreaking. I can’t imagine effectively telling my child I’m sick of caring for them so I’m just giving that responsibility to someone who they don’t know and who’s being forced to care for them with no training or presumably forewarning.

I appreciate you owning up to the fact that this study does not say what you claimed it did. I have a hard time believing it could have been misread as such regardless of local time or eyesight, but at least we’re on the same page.

I don’t know why you’re acting as though I said men have never in all of history stood up for women. I’m not making that case. I just don’t have a reason to believe that makes up a majority of man on man violence. How many times have I seen that vs how many times have I seen two men fight over a spilled drink or a parking space or some other frivolous thing. I don’t think the evidence is there to suggest that man on man violence is somehow secretly also the fault of women, which seemed to be that persons point.

Not sure you realize it was me you responded to elsewhere in this thread, but since you accused me of essentially patronizing you, I won’t make any comments about your personal situation. I only note that because you brought it up, and I’d hate to have you point to me not mentioning it as some lack of empathy.

Legitimately empathized and said I was sorry to hear about your experience, and you seemed to interpret it as me attempting to provide validation, so not sure how you think that corresponds with an unwillingness to empathize. I’m not talking to you any differently than I would talk to anyone else. If you don’t like the way I talk in general you don’t have to engage.

I’m not playing dumb. You just didn’t make a point and I was trying to ask if you meant to make one as kindly as I could. It seems like you’re attempting to now, so I’ll address that.

1. I never said men shouldn’t feel bad. Please point out when you believe I said that.

2. men should be allies. If you just said that men are becoming incels then I’m not sure why you think they are employing the allyship strategy. They’re clearly not. I also never suggested that allyship will solve the worlds problems or that women SHOULD treat men X way. I said that if men want to know how to make it less likely women are concerned for their safety when they show up, they should engage in allyship. That’s true, but not enough men are engaging in allyship. If more men did it there’d be a larger societal shift. More women interacting with more men who are allies and seeing them through that lens.

My message has never been about blaming anyone. I’ve never addressed how women should feel. Some women feel and act a specific way. That’s the framework the discussion is taking place in. If men want suggestions as to how to make women feel safer, I have some. They do not have to listen to them. They can ignore me and the other women telling them what would help women feel safe. Not sure if you know how allyship works, but a big part of it is constructive dialogue, and right now there are women saying what would help and you seem to be more interested in arguing with them than anything else. Likely allies are not alienated by this behavior and have empathy and understanding for the position women find themselves in. They… actually extend allyship.

If me suggesting allyship towards women is eliciting this kind of response I have a legitimate concern about your actual interest in being an ally. Seems like a weird thing to be against. Writing up a whole comment to argue against… being nice to people?

That’s not what that article is about, but I imagine you knew that already. 31% of the participants were experiencing it due to homophobia, 37% were because they didn’t want to marry who their parents wanted, 10% were due to wanting to get rid of them due to disability. Literally none of that is at it relates to an inciting incident of female honor being insulted. The article also makes a point of mentioning how this is a patriarchal problem and how women still make up an overwhelmingly large percentage of victims. None of this proves any point about how standing up for women is somehow a huge proportion of male on male violence.

This is a tactic fascists use. Just throwing in a study with no real relation to the topic. It’s to waste someone’s time and energy and divert the topic.

You clearly are not engaging in good faith and I invite anyone to read that study and confirm it does not say what you are suggesting.

I think it’s great that you’ve helped people in need. I’m sorry you were abused. That’s awful no matter the circumstances.

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I’ve not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?

I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It’s more or less the basis of civil society.

Just fyi, I was talking about this comment: https://reddthat.com/comment/18251444

Otherwise, yea, I think it’s important we all do what we can. Best of luck out there.

I’m not sure if you realize that it was me that you were replying to elsewhere in this thread, but I think you actually answered own question. In a vacuum, it shouldn’t matter, but in reality, it does. When “randomly” picking who coordinates social events, or work happy hour, is it generally a woman? When you’re talking about introducing a new idea in the office and you check with a colleague, is it always the same sex? When someone at work asks for a moment of your time, who are you finding immediate time for? I’m not saying that you have a gender bias, I am just saying that society has a gender bias, and often people don’t realize their subconscious gender bias. If you’re not paying attention, you can definitely fall into societal assumptions about gender without even realizing it. Heck, you might even find that you are white knighting, and helping women more than men. Maybe you never fall into those issues, but most feminist theory thinks it’s important to be at least conscious of this sort of thing.

I kept it mostly work related, because interpersonal relationships are all different and I don’t really know anything about you or the kind of interpersonal relationship you would have, but it generally applies to those as well. Obviously, the work examples are also quite specific for a specific kind of job, but hopefully it gives enough of a picture that you could extrapolate how unconscious bias could affect all kinds of jobs and not just insert sitcom office job here.

Gender blindness is generally not considered a feminist approach to interpersonal relationships.

Since you refuse to provide evidence, I will assume you have none.

Here, enjoy this report on how one in five cases of sexual assault reported to police are not believed: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9136376/

Are you suggesting that those situations are indeed inherently dangerous? If so, then why so uppity about their reactions? If not, then my point stands.

You are offering no solutions to the problems, while acting as though there is no cause to the problems.

Simple solutions can help complex problems. They’re not the only way to do so, but they are a way. You are clearly not legitimately interested in women and their struggles though, so this comment is here more for posterity than anything else. May you have the day you deserve.

Memes are not studies. If you can’t at least find one to support the point I’d hazard it was never true. You can’t base an argument around a single video, or even a collection of them. Data is generally needed.

White knighting is pretty exclusively used in a derogatory manner, which would indicate that most people think it’s not the default and that it’s cringe.

Men doing stupid things for women is not the fault of women. It also does not translate to defending women.

If men were so ready to defend women, why was the me too movement needed? Why is there still sexism in the workplace, or at all? Do I believe that some men like to appear masculine? Yes. Do I believe that some men equate masculinity with violence? Yes. Do I think that necessarily equates to protecting women, or doing things that benefit women? Absolutely not.

You say you didn’t read enough to follow, and that you don’t have any studies, but that there is definitely a point to be made. Even if there is, your comment does not really support that.

This feels like how Trump got elected. Commenting about how memes proved a point and just going off of vibes, it must be right.

You don’t “have to” do anything. If you want to be treated in a specific way, you may have to act a specific way. That’s how society is. How are you not being treated like a human? You’re being treated the way that person treats all men. You’re not being targeted specifically. That IS how they treat humans. In what direction do you think it erodes empathy? Is it eroding your empathy towards women?

I’m saying it. Right now. If a woman feels safer pretending to be on the phone with a friend if she finds herself alone with someone she feels threatened by then she should do so without guilt. That goes regardless of sex or gender or any characteristic of either party.

Women have to do a lot every day to be viewed as equal or more than their gender. Women are groped in stores and on transit and in public places. They are made to feel unsafe and disrespected by a large portion of society. Why can’t they just be themselves? Why can’t they just act normally?

It’s very easy for men to say “why can’t we treat everyone like equals” when women are still struggling for equality. Trust me, that’s what we want, but we’re not there yet, and you focusing on how a subset of women treat men in specific circumstances is part of the problem. Women would gladly trade, so our main concern could be that men crossed to the far side of the street instead of is this guy just waiting for the right moment. It’s not a fun or healthy way to live. It seems like you’re right that empathy is eroding, because if I was a guy I’d be able to recognize that it’s not personal and she’s doing it for her safety.

I would love to see what data you’re going off of that suggests that a large factor of male on male violence is a direct result of men stepping in for the safety of a woman. Please share what source you have for this.

Regardless, even if 100% of male on male violence was somehow because a man physically put himself in the way of a woman being attacked, my advice is still sound. There’d still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship. Your point about men being more likely to be killed by men than a woman is doesn’t really affect women’s perception of men. If a woman views men as a threat, the best way to help is to demonstrate that men on the whole are not threats. It’s unlikely that anything you do to make a woman on the street more comfortable will have a lasting impact on her perception of men. One of the best things you can do is show the women around you who know and believe you that you, an average man, are safe. Call out sexism in the workplace, be respectful of her boundaries. If more men did that then women would have more experience interacting with men they know are safe. This would change their perception of men as a whole. It’s a whole thing. Desensitization.

You did not say anything refuting my point or even suggest an alternative. You just said that men are also targets, which is true, but not at all relevant to the question of how to make women feel safer. I’m providing the perspective of a woman who knows and regularly speaks to other women.

If you’re being treated like an animal in every encounter you have, that’s probably a you issue. This advice will not help if no matter what you do or where you find yourself people perceive you as a non-human animal.

If for some reason you are purposefully exaggerating, and know that this only really applies in specific instances, then it probably will still not help you because I’m not sure someone legitimately concerned about others would exaggerate in this situation.

The reality is that no one is asking you to do anything. Women don’t owe you anything and if you don’t like the way they treat you and if you’re unwilling to make yourself seem like less of a threat then feel free to be upset at men that have put us all in this position. Women should not have to sacrifice their safety for your comfort. If you want to feel more comfortable around them you might need to put in the work to make yourself comfortable to be around.

I mean, pretty good advice to just treat all unknown snakes/sharks like possibly dangerous people. Give them a wide berth and try not to draw their attention. Look for a place to retreat to if things become more dangerous. Try to calmly alert others that leaving the area may be best.

On top of not suggesting that making men feel bad is the point (it’s not), this comment seems to provide helpful tips: https://reddthat.com/comment/18247122

What I’d also recommend is being an ally to women in your life already. If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they’d be less fearful of men outside/at night.

You asked “How do I react” and then when given a sympathetic and detailed answer seem to act as though it’s a huge imposition being demanded of you.

The reality is that you don’t have to do anything and no one has demanded you do anything. Sometimes, allyship requires effort. If you think you might be making someone uncomfortable and there is something you can do to ease that discomfort, it’s your choice to make, but please don’t act like it’s women who are out there putting society in this position. It’s men who are doing it. You’re also may be “sorry” about it, but clearly not sorry enough to want to change to help.

Most women do not perceive every man as a threat. There are some that do I’m sure, but generally there’s a specific set of circumstances where it becomes an issue. If you don’t want to take those opportunities to exercise allyship by making them more comfortable, you don’t have to.